VIPER & VINE EXOTIC ANIMAL KEEPERS FORUM

BURIRAM · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 20 Location: United Kingdom

I am just researching consumer's opinions vis a vis export/import of wild caught animals. What are your opinions on who really profits from this - the trappers or the regional third world 'fat cats' (ie foreign brokers), the uk importers or the shops such as ours? If it is true that the trappers earn a few cents per animal, then is it still ok for them to do this as the few cents they do earn may save them from living hell? Anyone want to discuss?

mike mc · Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 4 Location: manchester

personally i think the importers are the ones making the money from it all,the people who go out catching the reps are paid a pittence.i think the trappers do benefit from the money though as theres not many ways to earn an income in some of the countries the reps are sourced from although what they earn is not enough to take them out of poverty.i think there should be some sort of fair trade set up.like they do nowadays with coffee etc

BURIRAM · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 20 Location: United Kingdom

Yeah I agree - we have tried to get schemes like this approved in Buriram but it seems that the local 'Godfather figure' who also hold a senior position in government is working out exactly how to benefit from the trade. When he has worked that out then we will be able to do something - corruption of the worst kind and on a grand scale.

On the other side, I think Honduras is starting a scheme with villagers about farming poison arrow frogs - time will tell if this is a way to rob local knowledge off the poor and then use that to profit or if it is a genuine scheme to help the people.

RRD · Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

This is a great topic!

I feel the trappers do ok, and on a scale of 1 - 5 they score 2.
The importers score 4 possibly 5.
Pet shops 2.

In all honesty i feel pet shops are made to be the escape goats in this touchy subject.

If maybe a few more business men and goverments invested in the reptile/pet trade then maybe eventually things may turn around. Or perhaps work on breeding programs in their native country to assist with the demand. But often the business men and goverments are corrupt. The ones who lose out, i feel are the animals and the local village people in what ever particular county the animals originate from.
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BURIRAM · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 20 Location: United Kingdom

The problem with governments in third world countries is that they profit hugely from this business (in proper taxes at best and 'tea money' at worst).

RRD · Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

Yeah I agree there Matt but how could we possibly try to improve things? Seeing as their way has been that way for so long? It's been that long now, that it has become the 'norm'!?!?!?!?
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BURIRAM · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 20 Location: United Kingdom

Well, one way is to find out who is taking the tea money and make it public - the matter of 'FACE' being the issue here. Many times a governor will be ousted or moved to an unrelated position due to the government losing 'FACE' - especially in third world countries who try to appease the USA and Europe.

Thailand is a good example of this. There are CITES conferences all the time especially over the laundering of art. 10 certification. Annex A animals were frequently exported to Thailand where tea money was paid for art. 10 certs. They were then re-exported to Europe and the USA as captive bred and as their papers were issued by a territory not within the natural range of the animal then no questions were asked. This was until a group in Thailand exposed the situation. Two men lost their lives in Buriram province to a local gunman over this. That unfortunately is what it takes in places such as this. An educated Thai man of Khymer origin in Buriram is also serving a sentence at a prison in Khorat Province for, shall we say, over exposing a senior government minister for corruption surrounding import and re-export of annex a animals and plants. The success in that is that the government minister was completely ousted by then PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Men on my farm have recieved prison sentences and have been shot at in their huts on our land for presenting material to the authorities that had the owner of Samut Prakarn Crocodile Farm near Bangkok arrested within the last twenty four months. He too though recieved a prison sentence for racketeering vehicles registered in Cambodia through Thailand to Malaysia. One of my best Thai friends in Surin runs an elephant recue centre. She lives under constant military protection from the police !?!?!?! as she exposes people of position for their corrupt ways when it comes to this trade.

It does work but it works slowly. The attitude is to be for the animals first, expose what you find, own big dogs and shoot anything that shouldn't be on your land at night. There are ways of changing things - it's just that the people in the UK either forgot how to or are too apathetic to do it. The Thais have not. Look at the last military coup. Thailand is for Thai people and they will oust a government if it does not represent them. Unfortunately people die sometimes for their cause. There are so many men and women in Thailand involved in causes to expose corruption of all kinds and especially wildlife corruption and most are willing to do a bit time (or worse) if it comes to it. The thing is not to moan but to act.

BURIRAM · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 20 Location: United Kingdom

Well, one way is to find out who is taking the tea money and make it public - the matter of 'FACE' being the issue here. Many times a governor will be ousted or moved to an unrelated position due to the government losing 'FACE' - especially in third world countries who try to appease the USA and Europe.

Thailand is a good example of this. There are CITES conferences all the time especially over the laundering of art. 10 certification. Annex A animals were frequently exported to Thailand where tea money was paid for art. 10 certs. They were then re-exported to Europe and the USA as captive bred and as their papers were issued by a territory not within the natural range of the animal then no questions were asked. This was until a group in Thailand exposed the situation. Two men lost their lives in Buriram province to a local gunman over this. That unfortunately is what it takes in places such as this. An educated Thai man of Khymer origin in Buriram is also serving a sentence at a prison in Khorat Province for, shall we say, over exposing a senior government minister for corruption surrounding import and re-export of annex a animals and plants. The success in that is that the government minister was completely ousted by then PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Men on my farm have recieved prison sentences and have been shot at in their huts on our land for presenting material to the authorities that had the owner of Samut Prakarn Crocodile Farm near Bangkok arrested within the last twenty four months. He too though recieved a prison sentence for racketeering vehicles registered in Cambodia through Thailand to Malaysia. One of my best Thai friends in Surin runs an elephant recue centre. She lives under constant military protection from the police !?!?!?! as she exposes people of position for their corrupt ways when it comes to this trade.

It does work but it works slowly. The attitude is to be for the animals first, expose what you find, own big dogs and shoot anything that shouldn't be on your land at night. There are ways of changing things - it's just that the people in the UK either forgot how to or are too apathetic to do it. The Thais have not. Look at the last military coup. Thailand is for Thai people and they will oust a government if it does not represent them. Unfortunately people die sometimes for their cause. There are so many men and women in Thailand involved in causes to expose corruption of all kinds and especially wildlife corruption and most are willing to do a bit time (or worse) if it comes to it. The thing is not to moan but to act.

RRD · Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

But how the hell do they know who to trust? Seeing its their own lives on the line it would seem. Shocked

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BURIRAM · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 20 Location: United Kingdom

Nobody would know who to trust especially in country where human life is not worth so much. It costs approx. 500baht (£7) to get somebody shot dead in North east Thailand (perhaps more for a European as the investigation might be further reaching). It would not be a highly accomplished gunman for that kind of money but remember that an average of 3 Thai farmers are found and NOT IDENTIFIED (ie no investigation) dead in the paddies EVERY DAY. I think to a lot of activists in the Third World that to die for a cause and having made a difference validates them ever being born in the first place. This is really 'Buddhist Merit Making' and they believe in reincarnation so death is not final as it is in Christianity and Western culture. That is, a farmer who is poor makes merit this life and has better circumstances next life. This fatalistic approach is so hard for me to understand and I guess you too. It makes me feel them to be cold hearted or uncaring, but this is simply not the case at all.

RRD · Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

In all fairness Matt I do fully understand that....the way they see death is far different from how we see it (westeners) and in all honesty with my studies over the years I can accept their view.

This maybe a little off topic but I would like to ask you how you feel about a minority of people campaigning to stop the sale of exotics sold in pet shops, mainly toroises. I am currently having heated discussions with UK tort breeders who see the world in their own eyes and refuse to bend slightly. They seem to think that it's either UK CB or nothing.
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BURIRAM · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 20 Location: United Kingdom

I think everybody should have the right to campaign for whatever they want - even a full stop ban on anybody keeping exotics. I do not understand however why a tortoise needs to be captive bred in the UK especially seeing as UK tortoise breeders in general have such a bad reputation in their field. It would be good in my opinion if the majority of tortoises offered for sale were captive bred but as to where that is done does not matter to me. To be honest, I think the German breeders are perhaps best in their field on this issue.

RRD · Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

Your probably right in what you say Matt.
Just think the UK Breeders are so far up their own arses they forget where their original tort came from. They just don't want to use a third party.
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